Saturday, December 4, 2010

Clarifications on previous post

I'm not sure I've explained myself properly, since I totally agree with the comment posted by Xeatheran, but he failed to notice.

Using his words, people buying the A320 and similar devices want an emulator priced around $100. Any feature that significantly increases the price would make it have to compete with the other more expensive linux based consoles (Wiz/Caanoo come to mind) or with the godzillas of the market (NDS, PSP).

So, any wished feature must be such that doesn't increase the price significantly:
  • Better processor: by next year, the CC1800 will be obsolete and underpowered compared to other competitors in the PMP market. The CC2000 will be a bit more expensive, but here they have no choice but to move on or lag behind. Note that the CC2000 has a powerful GPU. More details upon the official anouncement.
  • 256MB: this was already planned before I suggested it. Note that the CC2000 processor uses DDR RAM, whose widespread usage makes it cheaper than the SDRAM used by the JZ4732 and CC1800. This means 256MB in the next generation consoles may probably cost the same or less than 64MB in the current generation consoles.
  • A 480x272 4.3" LCD screen is not much more expensive than the A320 LCD, and it would make a big difference, at least for me. I find the A320 and GA330 screens too small. Problem here is that if you need a multiple of 320x240, you'd have to go for an 800x480 4.3", which I believe will be not just a little but much more expensive.
  • It should be obvious: either powered host USB type A or SDIO. Not both. My choice here is host USB, because dongles are way cheaper and more accessible than SDIO cards. But they pointed out that it may be impossible to fit such a bulky connector in the design. Maybe the PCB cutout would solve this. Anyway, it would increase cost just a little bit (mostly due to the USB power DC-DC converter), but you are also saving by removing the 2.4GHz radio from the design, which also as I pointed out, may be a big advantage when (if) time comes to pass CE/UL certification.
  • Analog nubs: if they are aiming, besides emulation, to get software studios to develop games for this console, it is a must. A GPU capable of, for example, running FPS games, would make no sense without analog nubs.
The rest of features I mentioned are essentially free (except licensing Doom, Duke, etc).

So: a CC2000 SoC (800MHz, GPU), 256MB DDR RAM, 4.3" LCD, analog nubs and powered host USB type A port. This would make a killer emulation console and stay in the same price range where the A320/GA330 are.

Camera, touchscreen, WiFi, etc, are nonsense. If you want too shoot crappy photos (most integrated cameras are crap) or browse the internet, use your phone or buy a tablet.

60 comments:

  1. I totally agree that Wifi and camera are nonsense.
    But touchscreen is not (resistive, of course):

    1. Is simplifies execution of emulators and searching in directories with a lot of files

    2. When installing dingux it simplifies porting of existent software

    3. It costs $2-$3 for a 4.3" size. This price is for Russia in stores with mobile phones/PDA replacement parts. I believe that the real price for manufacturer and large customers in China is around $1

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  2. @booboo: thanks for clarify this.

    I agree.

    Nevertheless i have a Caanoo and i often use the Touchscreen for most Homebrew Games.

    But anyway...a very powerful cpu+gpu (to emulate psx fullspeed), analoge-nub and a larger screen with good buttons and good build quality would make a it.

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  3. Ok, I understand that the price is very important...

    -But put line out back from the top (A330) to the left or right site (A320) is cheap and very usefull.
    -I hope hardware sound control (perhaps the wrong word; mute, increase and decrease sound with buttons) is cheap, too. (You are playing at public places, e.g. at school, in the train or bus etc. you think sound is off and then "düdlidüdidü" :s; You can set volume while playing a game)
    -why removing the 2.4GHz radio? it's cheap and you can play with others or connect to other devices without USB tools

    Cifer

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  4. I apologize if my last post sounded offensive. I just thought that most of the comments suggested bulls..t features that would significantly increase the price of such smartheld.
    I also didn't believe that the price could stay reasonable (I think that for most ppl it's about the 80 - 100 dollars) with the features you were mentioning. As you say it's not a problem, the GA330 seems quite overpriced to me now. But I'll probably buy one anyway.

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  5. Avoid analog nubs unless its an additional one to a good dpad. The depad is king when it comes to emulation and we dont want to go down the same path that Gamepark did, I own a few GP2x product and dont even use it because of the controls, this is also a problem with playing emulation on the PSP, dpad sucks on it.

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  7. "A CC2000 SoC (800MHz GPU), 256MB DDR RAM, 4.3" LCD, analog nubs and host powered USB type A port. Would this make a killer console emulation and stay in the Same price range Where the A320/GA330 are. "

    I agree with those specifications, but would like a touchscreen, which would be very useful for games like Heroes of Might and Magic (fheroes) and ScummVM games.
    Please directional analog no! Digital controls are much better. Could include both (like a psp) but if it must be only one of the two, best if it's digital, not analog.

    Saludos amigo!

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  8. "Analog nubs: if they are aiming, besides emulation, to get software studios to develop games for this console, it is a must. A GPU capable of, for example, running FPS games, would make no sense without analog nubs."

    I agree that with a capable GPU, dual analog nubs would make sense... of course, both should be small ones under the dpad/buttons, and not in the place of them like 3DS or a Caanoo, something like PSP, but better.

    ------------------

    Also, "to get software studios to develop games for this console", Wifi/BlueTooth, any kind of wireless conection is a must! People want to play Multiplayer!

    Preferably wifi, because of internet connection.
    Also WiFi would have financial potential for the Developers with something like an app store :)


    Whats the problem with Wifi? wifi chips are pretty cheap these days... :/

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  9. And yes, I agree with everything else you said:

    USB Type A over SDIO, 800x480 LCD, etc.
    Almost a killer device!

    I would just include WiFi for the reasons I said above

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  10. Agreed.
    If the price to have powered usb devices that would allow wifi (internet, in this case) and bluetooth is to remove the 2.4Ghz radio, it is great.

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  11. Well Multiplayer is interesting, but let's be honest : there are very few people to play with :S

    Could someone confirm what Eltaron said ? I'd be very interested in a touchscreen for only 1-2 $. Even if it's not in top priority, for that price... Here in France, it must be around 40 € (so like 55 $. Great profit !) ^^

    BooBoo, do you think you could ask them an idea of the price for each of those features ? That could help choosing whether or not it's useful.

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  12. @Les écrivains Génies

    $55? Even iPhone 3g display with capacitive touchscreen costs $30-40 in Russia. And you can buy the whole GPS navigator with 4.3" touchscreen on DX just for $62, so $55 for a touchscreen is toooo overpriced.

    Resistive touchscreen contains only two pieces of film with thin metallic cover, it can not be very expensive.

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  13. Just to note:

    While integrated WI-FI may increase the cost, it would also push multiplayer games on the new device. Besides dongles are huge.

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  14. @ Eltaron
    ARE YOU KIDDING ME ???? Iphone 3G cost around 700 $ here !!! (without mobile phone operator... Otherwise it's about 1$ with a costy suscription) Or maybe I misunderstood what you just said...
    After verification, a DS touchscreen replacement costs about 7 $ on ebay, so it must be 2-3x this price in a store. Dunno how much for the mobilephones.

    @ Karolis S
    Ok but what is exactly the cost of an integrated Wi-Fi ? If it's about 5 $ then ok why not...

    Wouldn't it be great to have several versions, with/without bluetooth, wifi, microphone, camera, and other stuff I find rather useless ??

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  15. @Les écrivains Génies
    ARE YOU READING ME ???? Lol :D
    I'm talking about iPhone's screen+ts, not about the whole iPhone.

    Month ago I repaired LG KP500 phone with broken screen (3"). I bought touchscreen in store and it costs 50 rubles (~$1.6). Touchscreen is damn cheap thing. It does not contain any active parts and it's very simple in production. Don't search on ebay, look at taobao and other Chinese sites and you'll be surprised. Even dealextreme sells NDS touchscreenes for $2.42.

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  16. @ Les écrivains Génies

    If it is open source you will find it will get quite a bit of attention and many coders will release projects they made for other platforms on this device which could have multiplayer support.

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  17. "So: a CC2000 SoC (800MHz, GPU), 256MB DDR RAM, 4.3" LCD, analog nubs and powered host USB type A port. This would make a killer emulation console and stay in the same price range where the A320/GA330 are."

    Perfect!! Where i buy it? :)

    It seems to be able to use it like a console (plug it in a TV and use some wireless controller), right?.


    Anyway, If it will emulate PSX at full speed, would be great have a little box with this harware to use as a emulation/media center. Just replacing the screen, buttons and battery with some good wireless controllers.

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  18. @ Eltaron
    Sry, I didn't understood what you meant ^^'

    Maybe someone could make polls asking the Dingoo community wwhat they'd like/wouldn't like to see for the next Dingoo ?
    This way everybody could participate, having a chance to say : I want a microphone / I don't want that kind of pad / I'd love a better case / No the case was fine / I like crappy psp design / I like original designs...

    And Booboo could then feedback the Dingoo team about what we occidentals like or not.

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  19. @Les écrivains Génies: Good suggestion.

    Make a poll on different Forums about the different Features and Price Tag.

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  20. Will we have a dingux for the GA330 for Xmas ? ;O)

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  21. "A CC2000 SoC (800MHz GPU), 256MB DDR RAM, 4.3" LCD, analog nubs and host powered USB type A port. Would this make a killer console emulation and stay in the Same price range Where the A320/GA330 are. "
    I agree too, this is the perfect cheap-cool chinese console... a cheap crappy touchscreen (like in chinese cellphones) and all other nonsense would be stupid... and just would make it expensive

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  22. I wish this with PAD+Buttons:
    http://www.archos.com/products/ta/archos_28it/specs.html

    ARM Cortex A8 800 MHz
    Graphic accelerator: 3D OpenGL ES 2.0
    Android 2.2 Froyo
    Internal: 4GB
    WiFi (802.11 b/g/n)
    USB 2.0 Device
    68 g
    PRICE: 99.99$ !!!!!!

    Why not?

    CHUI.

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  23. The Dingoo's composite video output is not so good. If a new device could add s-video (chroma/luma) output it would be already better.

    Ideal would be to add a mini HDMI output.

    What I didn't see mentioned before is RGB output. RGB TV's are not so common in the US but in Europe every TV has RGB input (via the scart connector). RGB output would give the best analog video quality. And then you could also use the old Commodore/Atari/Philips RGB monitors from the 80's.

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  24. @DanLancha

    Android... seriously... so what would the gaming community and video community do with this crap then?

    Android is limited by video formats and even those stupid 3rd party video players cant make up for that. The game for android are rubbish i know because i have an android phone, the only plus for android devices is it internet capability but this topic isnt about making an android internet tablet is it.

    This new device need custom linux.

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  25. @eraldo


    Android API could be some limitations with Java Canvas but internally it has a Linux framebuffer driver (fb.ko). I have compiled PCSX4ALL for Android using SDL with framebuffer driver and works fine:
    http://androidforums.com/alpha-beta-testing/222489-pcsx4all-playstation-emulator.html

    So, we could compile all our emulators like a custom linux (SDL or a own minimal lib) and we have all Android apps too.

    Anyway a ARM-Cortex handheld (with or without Android/CustomLinux) like Archos28 only cost 99$ at real market.

    My Odroid-S (ARM-Cortex with Android) is x4 more faster than WIZ/CAANOO (ARMv5 with CustomLinux like GA330) running PCSX4ALL.

    Why not a ARM-Cortex handheld like Archos28?

    CHUI.

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  26. Analog nubs? no way.

    Nav-Point!
    http://www.synaptics.com/solutions/products/nav-point

    Use a touch pad for the D-pad

    For those of you that don't read Synaptics web site on a regular basis

    Think of the round D-pad of the Sega Genesis/Megadrive now make it touch sensitive like your laptop's touchpad.

    but if you aren't going to put 6 thumb button and a shoulder button on each side what use is a analog stick? you can't do a playable emulation of N64's controller with out 6 thumb buttons.

    and name one game besides Cybersleds that uses 2 analog sticks?

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  27. Have you tried nav-point i real life? i had the logitech dinovo mini. navpoint is useless for gaming.

    But on the idea of starting a poll wit cost of features with an vote of include/leave out

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  28. @Magnus
    Have you tried D-pad in real life? I had the Xbox 360 controller. D-pad is useless for gaming.

    :P

    iPhone gamers say that virtual touch joysticks work for gaming.

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  29. no the touch joy stick are the worst, not real, not resistance, The xbox d-pad is good enough, can do all the moves in street fighter without a problem. 2 analog sticks would be useful for quake type games but a good dpad is the most essential componet for comfortable controls, the saturn, dreamcast type dpad is best.

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  30. I own an iphone and the touch analog controls are useless for games. The best pad i have ever used is the snes pad. that plus twin nubs of the psp kind would be perfection.

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  31. @Dr.Altacica
    iPhone Gamers?

    Honestly?

    I can play blackjack on my BB but I sure as hell don't consider it a "gaming" device. I've tried iPhone's crappy virtual joysticks... I'd rather play blackjack on my BlackBerry's trackball (and that sucks nuts).

    D-Pad, with two analog nubs for possible FPS's would be ideal. If one or the other, go with just a D-pad. A320 works great, would work amazing if the shoulder buttons didn't suck.

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  32. I think touchscreen is a must, for browsing in the explorer and choosing between files even if its practically useless for gaming, i don't want a retina dislay a crappy touchscreen is enought. A good d-pad will do the work, i have experienced problems in others gameheld with analog nubs (see openpandora). And also a good pair of shoulder buttons (a pair in both sides).

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  33. @M4GIC

    "Market research firm Interpret on Monday suggested gaming on mobile phones is stealing significant share from dedicated handheld gaming devices like the Nintendo DS and Sony PSP."
    http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/31899/Report_PSP_DS_Use_Stagnant_While_Phone_Gaming_Rises.php

    "Do I think that in the near term [Apple] can hurt us more than Microsoft? Absolutely."Nintendo of America president Reggie Fils-Aime

    @Magnus
    the "snes pad"? the SNES only had a Digital 8way pad.

    If you bothered to read the NavPoint site I gave the URL for:
    "NavPoint solutions can include both capacitive and mechanical buttons for performing designated functions such as launching applications."

    Like I said, with NavPoint you can get a PHYSICAL D-pad and have ClickPad functionality.

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  34. My question to you is: Have you actualy tried any navpoint devices? i own the flahship product for the tech its called dinovo mini and is a pint to use for gaming. If there are any product that manages to have a good feel for gaming please tell me wich.

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  35. "So: a CC2000 SoC (800MHz, GPU), 256MB DDR RAM, 4.3" LCD, analog nubs and powered host USB type A port. This would make a killer emulation console and stay in the same price range where the A320/GA330 are.

    Camera, touchscreen, WiFi, etc, are nonsense. If you want too shoot crappy photos (most integrated cameras are crap) or browse the internet, use your phone or buy a tablet."

    i feel this to be completly correct in my opinion, just make it feel nice to hold and have good build quality, the two nubs is a great idea, maybe ruberised and/or textured and recessed where your thumb fits right into it, as oposed to gripping it from on top like the psp nub, also the dpad should be first priority in gaming control considering most people play these pocket emulators for retro things, i think the dpad on gamegear was perfect, how your thumb just sat right in it and was responsive and fluid. also tell the people at dingoo that comfort, good confortable controls, and a high quality case made of good plasitc that wont bend alsong with a builtin screen cover to prevent damage is whats most importat to me, because im not gona buy something if i feel it will break down over time, also i think it should ship with dingux preinstalled or some other form of linux, but yeah everthing desrided in your post booboo, but it must have a quality case and controls to match, the kinda plastic the gamecube was made out of would do nicely, and i would want the walls of the case to be just as thick say 1/16"

    another good d-pad example would be either exactly like the snes original or like the sea saturn dpad. also alot of etro gamers are much older now with larger hands, so dont make the controls the size of the ds because i took that thing out and played it and my hands have grown since then and it was a pain to hold

    anyway thats my input, heres a drawing i did of how i want it to look: http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss306/Gigastorm123/dingooconcept2.jpg

    and thanks booboo so much for all the work you did getting dingux up and running, it means alot to all of us

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  36. Did I say that I consider WiFi very important? :P

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  37. booboo,
    pliss answer me this question. on chinachips site tells the output video is component. thats possible?? or the output format is just 480p??
    i see this video on youtube.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfkFhjfeCk4
    and if it uses 2 jack. one jack to 2-rca for audio, and one jack to 3-rca for component like this video shows. thats make me happy. pliss tell me if it possible.

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  38. Booboo seems to be busy with the new dingux for GA330 ... :OS

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  39. "So: a CC2000 SoC (800MHz, GPU), 256MB DDR RAM, 4.3" LCD, analog nubs and powered host USB type A port. This would make a killer emulation console and stay in the same price range where the A320/GA330 are."
    I agree with everything except 4.3 screen. This would make device very big, like PSP or JXD3000 =)
    But I hope that all of you would like to have something more pocketable, so in my opinion it must be not bigger than closed DS Lite.

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  40. Happy Christmas Booboo! Hope you have a better year than last.

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  41. @Magnus
    >Have you actualy tried any navpoint devices?

    Yes.

    >If there are any product that manages to have a good feel for gaming please tell me wich.

    PS3 Wireless Keypad by Sony

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  42. No news about Booboo ??

    Did we got to put his face on the milk can to find it ?? ;O)

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  43. hello booboo, i have an idea for the case design, heres a picture i drew of the front:

    http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss306/Gigastorm123/finaldesigndingooconcept.jpg

    thats my dream of how the perfect handheld emulator would look,with the same plastic and construction/build quality as a gameboy advance. and for it to have rounded grip areas on the back where the hands wrap around like with the psp originat where it hand those lumps on the back for the hands to grip around

    and yeah, all the details described sounds good, the possessor seems strong enough to support 60fps fullspeed on all games in regards to snes emulation which is fast enough for me. granted the developers will have to work on it to get it that way, btw i am truely thankful to all the devs who work on emulators and homebrew.

    the main thing for me is the build quality and good controls/usability all else that ive described/has been described seems good to me

    checkout this article on the next gen dingoo at maxconsole: http://www.maxconsole.net/content.php?41905-Dingoo-asks-maxconsole-readers-what-do-you-want-in-a-handheld-Shows-off-a-concept

    if you could show this to the people at dingoo that would be really good and i would be very thankful towards you booboo

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  44. hello. any news?
    whats going on in China?

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  45. Bollocks. And I just received my GA330.

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  46. Are this blog is a "ghost blog" ???

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  47. I think if is to have a touch screen should be a good one, because the touch screens that they use on China cellphones are a crap. Maybe the could launch two models, one without toutch screen and other with it, the idea of use iphone 3g's touch screen is great. And I think also it's not necessary analog nubs.

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  48. Hi booboo,

    would you say it is worth to wait for this new killer handheld?? When will the release be?

    Or should I just buy a GA330 or and old fashioned Dingoo A320 now?

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  49. Hola Ignacio, que sabes de la nueva Dingoo A380, en las tiendas online dicen que viene con Dingux nativo?

    New Dingoo A380

    http://www.etronixmart.com/dingoo-a380-mini-console-2players-gaming-wireless-controllers-p-793.html

    Features:

    1. Model: Dingoo A-380 console
    2. Gaming Console Modes: GBASFCFCMDNEO-GEOCPS-1CPS-2GBCSMSGG
    3. Operation System: Windows2000/XP/Vista/Windows7
    4. Default System: Dingux (Dingoo Linux)
    5. Internal wireless receiver: Internal 2.4GHz receiver module, support two 2.4GHz wireless controllers
    6. Multi-players mode: Support 2 -player gaming
    7. CPU: 500MHz
    8. Ram: 64MB
    9. Capacity: 4GB
    10. G-Sensor: Vibration Motor
    11. Console design: Cross direction buttons, A/B/X/Y buttons, Left/Right shoulder buttons, START/SELECT buttons, power switch, hold-button, internal RESET button
    12. Video port: AV-Out
    13. Display: TFT 3.2" QVGA LCD(16:10), resolution 400X240
    14. Audio Port: 3.5mm Stereo Audio Output, microphone output
    15. Audio Type: Stereo Speakers
    16. Card Slot: TF(Micro SD), up to 32GB
    17. Additional Port: USB2.0 port/Charging port
    18. MAMEPSJAVA(after later firmware up-grade.)
    19. Compatible Video Formats: RM,RMVB,MPEG1,MPEG2,MKV(H.264,DIVX,XVID),WMV,MOV,MP4,3GP,AVI(H.264,DIVX,XVID),ASF,MPE,FLV,MPEG,MPG,DAT,VOD(no more than 480P)
    20. Compatible Audio Formats: MP3,WMA,WAV,OGG,ACC,APE,FLAC,M4a
    21. Additional Media Functions: Audio function supports MP3, WMA APE, FLAC audio format; synchronous lyrics display function, multiple EQ options, and 3D virtual sound field, surround sound effect and play mode options. Music can keep playing while using other application
    22. Video playback supporting many types of multiple scaling screen modes
    23. Image viewer formats: JPG,BMP,GIF,PNG. Supports zoom/rotation /PPT display
    24. FM radio: 76.0MHz~108.0MHz,up to 40 channels. Supports recording
    25. Audio Recorder formats: MP3,WAV Recording time up to the rest of capacity
    26. E-book Formats: TXT,HTML,RTF,DOC. Supports bookmark, auto browsing, font sizing, TTS oral reading functions
    27. Languages: English, Chinese Simplified, Chinese Traditional, Japanese, Korean, Russian, German, Spanish, French
    28. Color: Black/White/Pink
    29. Special functions: Supports firmware up-grade and software expansion
    30. Battery: 1800MAh Lithium ion battery
    31. External power supply: D C 5V 500m
    32. Weight: 130g
    33. Dimension: 136×59×15(length × width× height,in mm)
    What is including:

    Dingoo A380 Mini Game Console
    USB cable
    AV cable
    Charger adapter
    a pair of Setero earphone

    Saludos.

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  51. helo Atlantida .
    helo everyone.
    Is the Dingoo A380 a official one or is GEMEI not involved?
    What about full Linux support?

    More infos about that please?

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  52. Hi Murat, I don't know. I'm asking the same questions.

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  53. I've Gemei A330, but i'm quite sad about it... I want DINGUX =(

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  54. Me too I got a GA330 and no news of BooBoo ...

    The DA380 seems to be a copy of the GA330 but with a Ingenic processors ... and a different case and more native emulator (like Mame and GB and GBC).

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  55. a copy that's completely different then.

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  56. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  57. The Dingux for GEMEI A330 is Comming???
    Thanks for you work!!!
    Bye bye!!!

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